i'm chris hayes, here with hilda so list, former obama secretary of labor. aaron pena, head of the hispanic conference of texas. joining us on satellite is ruben martinez, author of "america boom and bust in the old southwest." and we're talking about the border which has become a flash point in the nation's immigration discussion, and we're talking about what's been happening on the border, which is a tremendous amount of enforcement. which if you're not down there, it doesn't matter. it doesn't affect your daily life, but in that region of the country, it's been really a tectonic shift. the question before we went to break, if the way that we've gone, more enforcement, more boots on the ground, higher fences, drones, et cetera, is the wrong way to go. what's the right way to go, aaron? >> first of all, i don't disagree with the enforcement policy. we need to have enforcement. we do have real crimes. the cartels are there. most of the crimes occur on the mexican side of the border, but we occasionally have assassinations or shootouts on our side of the bord